Monday, February 4, 2008

Windows Platform Death Revisited

After my KDE article, comments are everywhere complaining about the headline.
OSNews, Linux.com, and even the Dot. One guy even blogged his grief about it.

So here I offer a response.

First off, Get a grip. Articles need good titles. This one was too good to pass up.


Second, according to the company that produces Windows XP, end of life is Jan 2009, 11 months from now. See Microsoft Lifecycle

Third, the article clearly states that my Windows development platform was going unused for months at a time. No more .Net and no more embedded coding. I preferred to use a text editor on the linux box. Kate for embedded, Kdevelop + QT for cross platform apps. In that sense it was dying. Giving me Kate on Windows does a world of good for it's usability.

My only question is, Why don't these people ask these questions here?

Windows is the market leader, it will be for some time. We all know this. However, I bought my last copy long ago. I recommend it to no-one, I support it not at all. OK, I still help my mother out when she calls.

At my home there is one laptop with XP, explicitly for the purpose of maintaining .Net applications, testing cross platform apps and re-programming an embedded processor.

This was the KDE for windows test machine. Since KDE installation, It has been very popular with my pre-Teen daughter, who never even touched it before. She now wants KDE4 on her Kubuntu box. She doesn't even know about all the cool Plasma, KWin compositing stuff, only what KDE for Win shipped with.

In my circle, Windows isn't dying, it's all but dead. Our next Laptop will be a Everex Cloudbook or Asus eeePC. All of our PCs run Linux with KDE for a variety of reasons, but mostly because it works.

Hold on while I check what the end of life is on our distros. Oh yeah, there isn't one. That is no small distinction. Planned obsolescence is not something I intend to support with my money, but to each their own.


MrCopilot

Update 3/24/08: Computer World has a nice explanation on the XP lifecycle titled:

Windows XP: Going, going ... gone?

Covered by Slashdot with the Headline: The Death of Windows XP

I fully expect all you complainers to give them hell just like you did me.

MrCopilot

25 comments:

Andrew said...

Yeah, I can see the reason for the change. I too have been programming in .net but recently made the switch to a Linux distribution. At the moment I'm using GNOME but when KDE 4.1 is released I plan to move everything over - Qt is too good to miss out on, especially with tools like Kross, Nepomuk and the other goodies announced in the keynote!

nnonix said...

I agree, I see no evidence Windows is dying. Linux adoption is growing rapidly (which is good) but Linux adoption doesn't equal Windows rejection. I think it is very safe to say that the overwhelming majority of Linux users still use Windows more than they (or we) would like to admit.

Tristan Grimaux said...

When I saw the title, I agreed instantly. In Windows there is no magic, no thrill, not anymore. There was a lot of excitement ten years ago, but now, all of that is gone. Windows will revive when it goes Open Source. Yeah! It WILL!!!

Anonymous said...

O M G! You are so ignorant...mainstream support for XP ends in April 2009 (remember it RTMed in Oct 2001) and extended support ends in April 2014. Extended supports covers ALL security hotfixes and some significant non-security issues too. Doesn't mean people stop developing for XP....doesn't mean XP stops working. After reaching 90-95% marketshare, what place does MS have to grow? And anyways they're diversifying AND reporting huge profits and yet you say Windows is a dying platform? Just because you have lost interest in it as a developer, Windows is dead? LOL.

RMSe17 said...

I tried installing KDE on windows, but the installer crashed hehe.. oh well, I will wait some more. Windows is not leaving my PC until I can play my video games in Linux with no performance or quality loss. (I currently play Crysis, SupCom, X3:Reunion XTended)

Anonymous said...

X3 should run about the same in linux. I generally get a few extra fps myself.

DiThi said...

Gmail *does* work on Konqueror. It's not oficially supported, and gtalk doesn't work, but the rest works very well for me. Change the user agent to firefox or mozilla for mail.google.com and the ajax mode will work.

Jonathan said...

Ok adding a comment here instead of a blog post :)
Distributions do have an end of life. Kubuntu is supported for 18 months on the desktop, 6.06 the Dapper Drake was supported for 3 years on the dekstop, and 5 years on the server. Shorter then Windows XP is supported for.
Do the other distros support their products for a certain time frame? Of course, what is REHL supported for? Is it shorter or longer then Windows Server? What about SLED? How long is each version supported for?

MrCopilot said...

Your post questioned the validity of XP's demise. Your response here says nothing about Microsoft plans to indeed kill it. But, no matter, on to your statements.

Distributions do have an end of life. Kubuntu is supported for 18 months on the desktop, 6.06 the Dapper Drake was supported for 3 years on the dekstop, and 5 years on the server. Shorter then Windows XP is supported for.


Can you install Kubuntu after the 18 month mark? Or Drapper Drake after the 5yr mark? Better yet can you upgrade them and what does that cost.

Is Canonical going to stop activation of those licenses, ever?

Typing this from a Debian installation. I see no plans to end support for it, upgrades come pretty regularly. I am free to install it on machines for as long as I like. I do not have that luxury with XP.

I, like everyone else, will be forced to ship Vista or Windows Se7en in the not to distant future, no matter my preference.

Anonymous said...

Personnally I think XP is going to be around far longer than MS want. Expect another extention to its final stay of execution.

Anonymous said...

Microsoft does not cancel activations for end of life product. I install Windows 9x on users computers (infrequently) and have no issues activating/updating them. It is in Microsoft's best interests to allow people these updates. A secure PC is going to have a positive impact on the user, and thus be more likely to persuade them to buy a newer version (when they want more features etc etc)

You may be biased in your opinion over which operating system is better, but you could at least be a little fair. Make comparisons the same. You remind me of CNN and various other american news networks.

How about the actual computer you wrote your blog on? Is the hardware inside good for life? Not really. Hardware manufacturers release new product every 3 months. If Microsoft has a product that lasts 20x longer, they are doing damn good.

How many versions of linux are there? Unix, BSD etc included. How many new releases are made each month, and of them, how many actually superior to the ones they replace?

Thank god we have something that lasts a few years, with reliable, steady changes or upgrades. There are countless reasons the windows PLATFORM is successful.

You sound like you have a personal grudge against it. Unfortunately, not everyone is able to discern when the operating system is truely at fault, vs some other application/driver/hardware.

Try Vista, it is honestly the most stable release yet. If you disagree, you have no used it.

MrCopilot said...

I install Windows 9x on users computers (infrequently) and have no issues activating/updating them.

Windows 9x requires no activation. As for updates, Customer outrage was the only reason reversed their decision on that.Washington Post 7/1/2006

You sound like you have a personal grudge against it.

Not a grudge, just a preference, a preference gained after years in the industry, partnering with Microsoft, servicing machines with their OS.

Unfortunately, not everyone is able to discern when the operating system is truely at fault, vs some other application/driver/hardware.

Fortunately I am not one of those people.

Try Vista, it is honestly the most stable release yet. If you disagree, you have no used it.

I have used it. I did not like it. Again, To each their own. The practices of Vista's creator give me no reason to believe they have changed their habits for the better. Stability in Vista may be better, I didn't use it long enough to find out. I did use it long enough to realize that the system requirements were ridiculous, and compatibility was a joke. I've made my choice for primary OS, and I am happy with it and confident that it is stable and allows me to work without getting in my way.

Nice chatting with you Anonymous.

Nathan J. Yoder said...

At what point of making numerous factual errors will MrCopilot acknowledge that he made a mistake?

Let's review the combination of illogical statements and factual errors:

1. "I personally don't use Windows that much." = "Windows is dying OMGLOLZ1!1!1!." Of course, you can substitute "Linux + KDE" for "Windows" and it still works, because many people rarely (or never) use Linux + KDE.

This is honestly the dumbest logic I've heard applied to anything technical in the past few months.

2. He left out the "End of Life" date for users with extended support, which gives it a total life of 13 years.

By that point, 99% of people will have no use for it and hardware will be more than fast enough for Windows Vista.

3. He dodged the issue of the "End of Life" for Linux distributions by focusing simply on the ability to install, rather than the ability to get any sort of updates, support and security fixes.

Go ahead and install a 13 year old Linux distribution and see how much fun you have with it.

3. He asserted that Windows XP can't be installed after the "End Of Life" (which doesn't mean "we won't do activations"), but provided nothing to back this up.

4. Microsoft works much harder for backward compatibility, but he complains about it nonetheless. Microsoft does it to such a large extent that they end up making sacrifices that Linux zealots criticize it for.

Trying to get old binaries working on new distributions is such a large pain in the ass that special hacks have to be created for each software program not available in source form and only if it's popular enough.

For old open source packages, you get annoying dependency issues that require "tweaking" and other obnoxious stuff that your average user will never want to deal with.

5. I'm not sure what this stability nonsense is about. I'm a developer who has used a variety of windows development tools and this includes true embedded developing (not simply development for pervasive platforms [e.g. PDAs]).

An IDE crashing is not the same as the OS crashing, so that kind of comparison is ridiculous. I've seen other commenters suggest that you apparently often can't kill naughty programs, but it is extremely rare that I ever have trouble killing a program.

Windows crashes are usually due to bugs in third-party drivers. This is not an issue that Microsoft can fix, and Linux suffers from the same problem with third-party drivers.

Nathan J. Yoder said...

6. Oh crimeny, I noticed that he actually DENIED That there's an "End of Life" for Linux distributions. Either he's lying or he doesn't know what it means to be at an end of a life cycle.

"End of Life" = no more support, updates or fixes of any kind. Duh. ALL major Linux companies have dates for these for their distributions, including Red Hat.

In other words, they practice planned obsolescence. All organizations/development groups do this. Use Firefox? They have dates planned to stop updating and applying security fixes to them too. This is NECESSARY, because no one is going to maintain something indefinitely.

You better stop using them, lest you be a hypocrite!

P.S. Still LOLing at the concept of "I don't use it" = "It's dying omg cause the world centers around me!!!"

MrCopilot said...

Nathan,

Thank you for your thoughtful comments.

At what point of making numerous factual errors will MrCopilot acknowledge that he made a mistake?

At the point when someone proves me wrong. This post and the previous one describe my personal experiences. If you'd like to prove them wrong, it may be difficult.

But on to your "Logic"


1. Pay no attention to what I wrote, its easier to claim I said whatever you want. I wrote that MY development platform was dying of rare usage, where before it was the primary machine.

2. I pointed to Microsoft's site, Underlined words are things called URLS click them. I make no claims about their support policy.

3. Grab a copy of debian and apt-get dist-upgrade. From Debian.
3.5 Upgrading to a new release

This feature of APT allows you to upgrade an entire Debian system at once, either through the Internet or from a new CD (purchased or downloaded as an ISO image).




3(b) I assert no such thing, Microsoft has said when it becomes financially unreasonable they will stop activating it. When that will be and whom that will affect I cannot guess.

4. Microsoft does try hard for compatibility. They just did a bad job with Vista. Criticism is warranted.

5. Stability issues, If the IDE were some 3rd party app I might agree. When it is made by Microsoft, I disagree. When it takes down the whole system, requiring reboot, well par for the course I guess.

6.I do not deny that some distributions end SUPPORT for a particular version. What I correctly claim is as an OEM I am free to install whatever version I want for as long as I want. My particular Distribution has automatic updates and will never face the kind of problems you describe.

As stated, THE windows platform is not dying. A windows platform was. KDE helps breathe a little life back into it for ME.

Sorry if you disagree, perhaps you should start a blog extolling the virtues of your $400 OS purchase every 5 years.

If you do, I recommend you put them side by side like I did for over 2 years and use them both. Install what you need to do your work, and don't forget to keep your receipts and factor that into your comparison. Count your reboots, clock your time on both machines. Because no matter what you say, people will disagree.

Nathan J. Yoder said...

Now you're even lying about what you said in a vain attempt to save face.

1. First of all, you said this only AFTER people called you on your nonsensical title. Your title wasn't "my [personal (and no other specifc person's)] development platform is dying of rare usage" it was about KDE potentially saving "a Dying Windows platform."

Second of all, people never refer to not using a product much as that product "dying." It's clear that you wanted a sensational and, at best, extremely misleading title.

Third of all, you didn't even explore how KDE would supposedly save a platform, especially when you think they'll discontinue activation.

2. So putting links in your post some how exonerates you from making an inaccurate statement? Explain how that logic works. If I say "Debian will stop making Linux distributions" and I link to their website, does that exonerate the inaccuracy?

You made an explicit claim: "according to the company that produces Windows XP, end of life is Jan 2009, 11 months from now."

Now, this is at best misleading and at worst a lie. Microsoft offers support 5 years beyond that, why did you leave that out? At best, you made an honest mistake, but you didn't even admit that you left out critical information, which is what someone would do if that were the case.

3. A. Yes...you can upgrade Debian to an entirely new version, just like you can upgrade Windows to a new version...what's your point? And for some reason you automatically assume that method is good for upgrading the whole OS, whereas system admins typically use a fresh install because it sometimes creates problems otherwise. It seems that you're getting more and more irrational as you try to come up with these retroactive rationalizations.

3. B. You said: "Is Canonical going to stop activation of those licenses, ever?"

If you were making a meaningful point here, you'd obviously be implying that Microsoft would stop doing activations before a significant number people stopped using Windows XP.


Of course, you have nothing to support this.

If you didn't intend to say that, then what you were saying was "oh well they'll end activation at a point when it wouldn't matter, anyway."

4. A bad job compared to what? Previous versions of Windows? If you're going to make such a claim, compare to *nix platforms, which barely even try for compatibility in all versions.

Supposedly you use XP for .NET anyway, so why would Vista compatibility be an issue?

5. Visual Studio isn't third party, but it's not part of the OS. And there is third party software for Visual Studio, so what were you using? Even if Visual Studio itself was the culprit, you still aren't considering whether or not this could was caused by a flaw in the OS or just one in VS.

What the heck are you doing that takes down the whole system?

Lets pretend for a moment you were trying to be objective. In such a case, you'd see that this is rarity for Visual Studio users and even rarer for Windows users in general.

Of course, you could be a whiney brat and say "it must suck because for my specific use it crashes some with some unspecified frequency," much like someone could do the same with software configurations that crash a Linux distribution.

6. Your distribution's update system will eventually require that you upgrade the whole OS to an entirely new version, eventually. "Requiring you to upgrade to a whole new OS to receive any more updates" = "previous OS version has reached end of life via planned obsolescence."

That's because they stop giving updates for the current version. So you do, in fact, face the same problems.

You also ignored the possibility of using a crack to activate Windows XP if, for some reason, you use it for an insanely long time, well past any usefulness (when you can't activate it any more).

To someone being not-an-irrational-zealot, it's clear that this is the same as with Windows. When no more updates are given for Windows, eventually you'll have to upgrade the whole OS to a new version to get more.

The problem is that Windows XP isn't dying in any more than another version of a Linux distribution as it grows old. Remember, you retroactively changed your title's meaning to make it personal instead of universal.

7. In a typical zealous and myopic move, you accuse all of your opponents of being the opposite extreme of yourself just because they disagree.

Clearly, anyone who disagrees with you must be some sort of Windows-worshiper, right? It's not like you're just at an extreme, so you get lots of people with many different viewpoints disagreeing with you.

I'll be sure to count the very rare crashes that my systems have had and mark down the much more rare occassions when it was Microsoft's fault. Let's see...I've had crashes from third party firewall, video card and wireless pc card drivers. I don't even remember the last time a crash was caused by a flaw in the OS.

MrCopilot said...

@Nathan

1. Go back and reread the original post. It is CLEARLY a story of personal experience. The title uses the article A not THE. I work with many talented engineers who use windows regularly, I repair their machine regularly as well. Their machines were not described, your machine was not described, mine was. I do not appreciate the accusation of lying.

KDE saves the platform for me because I will use it again, especially if they get Kdevelop and Amarok up and running. Notice the conclusion of the article : Not Yet!

2.I didn't write the words Microsoft did. It is Microsoft's Lifecycle policy. The call it end of life, they give a date. The date is accurate, at least until MS changes it again due to customer outrage.

3a. Updating a Debian system to the latest version is not the EXACT same as having to repurchase an incompatible and likely unusable (given the hardware) Windows License.

I made no claims of which method of upgrading Debian is better, only that your statement is false. Glad you agree.

3b.I said exactly what I meant. It is entirely up to Microsoft when they decide to stop customers from using the OS they paid for. They made these statements to the press.Please don't paraphrase me, your comprehension skills are not up to the task.

4.Yes, in comparison with previous Windows versions. As for Linux, I have had no problems in this regard, I understand that some people do encounter problems with glibc updates. Binary compatibility is not a stated goal of an Open SOURCE operating system. Recompile.

5. Again reread the post. I opened a web browser while editing, not debugging, not compiling, just editor window. I used no third party add ons for VS. Unspecified frequency, ok, daily is that better.

6. You clearly do not understand the term planned obsolescence, You could look it up. Here is a snippet from the wikipedia (of which you are familiar, I see).
For an industry, planned obsolescence stimulates demand by encouraging purchasers to buy again sooner if they still want a functioning product.

A Debian system is meant to be always up to date. However they backport security updates to old packages more than any other distribution I know of.

Of course, You can break the agreement you made in the EULA (and possibly the DMCA) and use a crack. Your use of the phrase "insanely long time, well past any usefulness" implies that working hardware that doesn't meet the system requirements of VISTA or Se7en is scrapworthy? MmM, Purple is my favorite flavor.

NameCaller. (I love that word, it's so hypocritical)

I did not change the title's meaning, it meant exactly what it said in context. (Again try reading the whole post) The problem lies with people who want to debate the title only. It was deliberately provocative, and humorous I thought.

7. Oh now you're just adding numbers. Like I don't have anything better to do.

I made no accusation of you. It just seems you want to promote all the wonderful things Windows can do and the negatives of Linux in a long winded and particularly mean spirited fashion. This blog is not the forum for that behavior.

I welcome debate and dissent as witnessed by this far to lengthy conversation.

Like I said do an actual side by side comparison, It becomes a lot harder to forgive and forget the crashes. Why does a firewall bring down your OS? Clearly that is not a flaw in your Operating system's architecture.

Thanks for stopping by. Drop in again when you are feeling not so cranky, maybe after a nap.

MrCopilot

Nathan J. Yoder said...

1. So you're admitting that the title was inappropriate for the article's content? I fail to see your point.

Does the English language confuse you? You can't arbitrarily change the meaning and usage of words just to avoid looking bad.

Using "a" instead of "the" doesn't exonerate you. No one says "a XYZ platform" to refer to "my personal decision to not use it as much." When someone refers to a platform like that, they are referring to general use. The word "dying" also isn't ever used to mean "I've willingly decided to not use something as much." At best, it makes you misleading and at worst, a liar.

If I create a title that says "how to fix global warming," and then write about basket weaving, does the fact that the article was clearly about basket weaving change the fact that the title was inappropriate?

2. This is a blatant lie, as you were not QUOTING the page, you were summarizing it and improperly at that.

If you had bothered to read all of their life cycle policy, you would have known that they provide the extended support (which is on their website), but you didn't, so now instead of admitting an error, you run in circles.

Do you honestly not consider it misleading at all to exclude the fact that Microsoft is willing to provide support well beyond the date you specified (which was not a quote from the page in question)?

3. (A) You already acknowledged that Microsoft does well for compatibility in general and now you're rejecting that premise? Aside from the fact that incompatibility roots from people relying on non-standard/non-API behavior in general (i.e. the third-party programmer's fault), almost everything of practical value will work or can be made to work with relative ease.

Linux doesn't have to face that level of closed-source binary programs and can't even run the stuff that would be incompatible on Windows anyway, so what you're referring is a losing point of Linux far more than it is of Windows.

I'm sorry that you have to stick with the same, shitty hardware for years and years, ESPECIALLY as a programmer. It must suck being poor and work for that tiny, poor company.

(B) So you are conceding that you had no point in saying that before? You ignored my point that if what you were saying meant nothing else, then it was a meaningless statement that only served as an emotive statement (intended to emotionally bias readers).

The fact, which you ignored, remains--that it doesn't matter in the slightest if Microsoft discontinues activation far after people stop using Windows XP.

4. Glibc isn't even the limit of the problem either, there goes your "expert" knowledge. So because something is not a stated goal, that makes it better? (This is ignoring that some do aim for binary compatibility, but we'll leave that other blatant factual error aside.)

The fact is that they don't remain binary compatible, requiring the pain in the ass and long process of recompiling everything. Oh boy. What a great "solution." Certainly, most users, especially ones who aren't poor like you, pay to just upgrade more quickly and easily.

And as stated before, and you ignored, they have to just hope that any commercial software that gets broken has someone who designed hacks to make it work.

5. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

Oh boy. Your machine crashed just by opening a web browser? That's the first and only time I've EVER heard of a situation like that crashing Windows XP (I and many others have opened both simultaneously a million times)--at the absolute worst, this is some sort of extraordinarily rare problem that only you experience, meaning that it is a piss poor argument against Windows XP stability.

Obviously, something else is going on and you suck at diagnosing problems. When very bizarre shit like that happens, it's usually a hardware problem. Did you even bother running diagnostics for that?

Do you get any error messages? I wouldn't be surprised if, for example, you got a blue screen indicating a problem in the video card's driver and deliberately left that you.

6. You're only helping to prove my point. Unless you can establish that Microsoft will cause Windows XP to just stop booting up after a certain time, then *nix distros are no different in this context.

If you read that article, you'd note the different types of "PO." Refusing to provide necessary updates is one of them.

All *nix OSes/distributions will eventually stop doing general updates and even stop doing security fixes, which leaves them obsolete--forcing you to upgrade to the new version of the OS. The "Life Cycle" refers only to a given version of an OS, meaning that if you're forced to upgrade to a new OS version, the previous version has ended its life cycle.

Lets say all *nix based OSes are as vigilant as Debian (they are definitely not--many, such as FreeBSD, will only provide security fixes for a few years once the version falls out of favor), exactly how long will they backport security fixes? 5 years? 10?

Who cares if your break the EULA to use a product you bought legally? Even Microsoft won't care.

All hardware becomes "scrapworthy" once it becomes old enough. Do you seriously believe otherwise?

Your title doesn't fit the content of the article, unless you want to redefine words in it to an alternate usage that no one else uses. And again, even if we accept your usage, ALL OSes/distributions die at some point and if we consider specific individuals ALL platforms, even the most current ones, can be said to be dead in the sense of "all platforms are dying/dead" Other than you, who actually says that? Good job at redefining the English language.

In the article, you never even proposed how KDE will "save" it, considering that existing software only becomes "useless" when you can't run the OS anymore and at that point, you can't run any third party (i.e. KDE) software, either.

7. "It just seems you..." is an accusation, genius. In your previous response, you made a suggestion that I start a blog about the virtues of Windows and other such nonsense, which is obviously an attempt to paint as some Windows-obsessed Linux-hater.

I'm seriously beginning to question whether you're anything other than an amateur programmer because your statement about firewalls indicates that you don't know how they're actually implemented. SERIOUS QUESITON--how do you think firewalls are implemented?

How many firewalls do you know that are implemented entirely in userland? Ever heard of ipfw, ipf, Netfilter, etc? Seriously. Existing in kerneland/driverland, it's very easy for a bug in them to bring down the whole OS.

I've told you already, that crashes caused by flaws in the OS are so extremely rare that I cant' even recall them. This is true of my usage of Windows 2000/XP, FreeBSD and Linux.

If you wanted only polite responses, you should have started this all by being polite instead of cranky yourself and it's pretty clear that I'm disagreeing with your points here, as I have OBVIOUSLY not brought up random, unrelated points either praising Windows
or bashing Linux.

Most of us aren't that myopic that we see others in such extremes. This is why I find it odd that you think I need a nap, when I'm quite able to see the spectrum of viewpoints that exist.

Nathan J. Yoder said...

Actually, forget all of that if you wish. I'm just curious about your firewall comment and why you think all of these firewalls are running exclusively in userland. I'm assuming your comment regarding flaws was sarcastic and that you were actually saying that you DO think it's a flaw in the OS architecture, so please don't respond by claiming it wasn't sarcastic just to get out of this.

Hell, if I cared to search, I could find various (since fixed) attacks on *nix firewalls that would cause the OS to freeze.

MrCopilot said...

Persistent aren't you. I don't think forgetting all that is appropriate. It was a substantial set of allegations, untruths and mischaracterizations. Tel you what though I'll answer your last question first.

Firewalls, The ones you mentioned are for Linux/BSD/Solaris. Your description of crashes, I assume from context, were in Windows. Which one were you using? Can you point to an instance where one of the above has crashed your Linux box?

I never said they were purely userland apps. Just that they shouldn't bring down your operating system.

Notice the (since fixed) in your comment. This is an important distinction between the two.

MrCopilot said...

On to Nathan's longer response

1. I admit no such thing. THE Windows platform is dying, I use it less and less. I am not alone, and for a significant # of users/developers we prefer a different system.

Blogs are all competing for eyeballs, The title of the post was appropriate to the content and it brought in the eyeballs. Like I said before if you would like to debate the content, that might prove more educational.

Let me ask you a question, If you date a woman (let's call her Winnie) every 2 days for 15 yrs, and all of a sudden you stop seeing her instead choosing to date another woman (Let's call her Lynn)ever day. Would you consider You and Winnie's relationship dying? Would Winnie? Perhaps you could argue with Winnie that it wasn't dying but I doubt you'd be successful.

2.Does it make sense to Develop for Windows XP anymore?

Direct OEM and Retail License Availability (end date) June 30, 2008

System Builder License Availability (end date)
January 31, 2009

That is a direct Quote, bub.

I said 11 months. Paraphrased but thems the facts. Here is another Quote:
This information helps customers and partners with product planning and information technology decisions.

I am aware and have pointed out that end-user support is longer, but I could care less.

3.(A) Are we looking at the same comments?

Jabs at my income or my employers, nice.

I upgrade when I feel it necessary to increase productivity.(Which is pretty frequently I might add) Not when the latest OS comes out.

(B) it doesn't matter in the slightest if Microsoft discontinues activation far after people stop using Windows XP.
Check the server logs buddy, people still use Windows 98. Is that wise, no but they do. Microsoft, in my humble opinion, has no right to try to stop that behavior. You or Microsoft should not decide when people upgrade their hardware.

4.The fact is that they don't remain binary compatible, requiring the pain in the ass and long process of recompiling everything. Oh boy. What a great "solution." Certainly, most users, especially ones who aren't poor like you, pay to just upgrade more quickly and easily.

Hey man, buy the newest version of your closed source software, I'm not here to convince you. You appear to draw the conclusion that I use Linux for price reasons, In some cases that is true. When it comes to embedded work I do enjoy the no per unit royalty aspects of Linux. But when it comes to my desktop machines, I use what works. IF Windows were to make a MORE usable product, I would consider it, But it would have to be the most AMAZING piece of software I have ever seen to date. (Their business practices have done far more harm than their buggy OS releases ever could.)

5.Yeah, you must be right, you know my skill levels through psychic osmosis.

The browser doesn't crash the system, it only occurred when Visual Studio was running. Diagnostics showed no Hardware problems. Booting from a CD running a full Linux OS and maxing memory showed no problems, memtest no problems, wiping the system and not installing Visual Studio fixed it perfectly. Reinstalling Visual Studio, Run VS, launch browser, crashes VS or alternatively crashes OS seemingly randomly choosing one or the other. I can read a Stop Error, Event Logs, Knowledge Base and Google. Your protestations to the contrary are meaningless. How long should I "diagnose" this problem, when I have a workable solution to get back to work?

6. Microsoft instituted an Activation system that stops a machine from booting. Their OS frequently requires rebooting. A percentage of the population can properly administer their system and prolong the inevitable for some time. Leaving a MUCH larger percentage with facing no option but to upgrade in most cases Hardware and Software. Period, end of argument, This is the very definition of planned obsolescence.

7.Genius, MADE is PAST TENSE. It just seems you want to promote all the wonderful things Windows can do and the negatives of Linux in a long winded and particularly mean spirited fashion.
This is an observation, but if it feels accusatory, I can live with that.

Again, I know that Windows can be administered to be a stable OS. Before I started using Linux, I felt that XP was the most stable consumer OS. As said before, when we use Windows daily as the lone system, little annoyances and glitches are easily forgiven. When you set a Linux machine next to it that doesn't suffer them, it highlights every single one until it becomes a soul crushing experience to use. This has been my experience. It still is, I have a Windows XP laptop right here, it almost never crashes. I still abhor having to use it. I do rejoice that it now has Kate on it though, hence the original post you are uninterested in discussing.

One final note. I have had to learn a lot to use Linux proficiently. This knowledge is far more valuable to me than the knowledge needed to properly administer (read FIX the broken) Windows box. It is damn near evergreen, meaning it will live on in usefulness far longer than this version of the OS. recognize Windows is the market leader on the desktop. I write software for it still. I however have a preference. I occasionally blog about that preference. Any visitor to this site expecting anything not coming from that viewpoint will be disappointed.

The subtitle & description of this Blog is Linux, OpenSource and other Stuff that is Good for You.

Nathan, your hostility and insults are uncalled for. If you want to argue on the technical merits, I welcome your contributions. Hurling insults about my skills, income, employer, etc.. are not. If your attempting to sway me to the dark side, just give up already, I'm a lost cause. Those freedom loving hippies already got me.

Liesl said...

As a user of both a Debian Distro of Linux and Micro$oft Windows XP, dual-booting on one laptop, I can honestly state, in my opinion, that I prefer the Linux experience over the Windows eXPerience.

I have been using the Windows Platform since Windows 3.0, not particularly proud of that, but stating it for timelining, and have seen several OS crashing issues caused by both 3rd party progs, drivers, etc. as well as MS proprietary software. The issues remain the same throughout Microsoft... If there is a small glitch in a program, the system can, and in most cases - shall, hang up on the user. I am not a programmer, I am a support technician, so I do NOT need to be running all the extra frills that can be used in the Microsoft environment, however I still have the same hang/crash issues across the MS platform. I admit, it may be an issue in the software being ran, not the fault of MS, but when I am attempting to load an MS application, for sake of argument I'll use MS Office [most people are familiar with the applications in the suite], such as Word 2003 and it hangs on load and gives me a beautiful BSOD, 9 times out of 10, I try to troubleshoot using the tools I learned to use in school, thinking outside the box, and the wonderfully cryptic material that MS represents in their knowledge base, and still not have a system stable enough to keep me smiling. I still use MS Windows, because of necessity not directed want.

On the Linux side, I admit, I still see compatibility issues, sometimes things don't quite "work" the way I expect them to. I am still able to find most of the drivers needed to support my Compaq Presario V2000 laptop, with the exception being that I have no wireless LAN capability in my current Distro of Debian, no big deal, I've learned to love my umbilical cord to the WWW. I am able to use OpenOffice on my Linux Distro and have the ability to read documents saved in the MS native formats that my friends and family members send to me. I can use Firefox [IceWeasel] for web-browsing and Thunderbird [Icedove] for email and not have any serious issues. I can't quite get Wine to work for me, but that's a different issue entirely.

For me, Windows is A dying platform... I am seeing it less frequently on my laptop's screen, as more software is released that is Linux compatible I reboot to Windows less often. I have found that Windows is good for my wife, she plays one of those Online MMORPGs and they haven't released a Linux build yet, however, we have figured out that when we get another computer built, we will be loading Linux on it and using that as her Samba file-server as well as the box that runs a private server for the MMORPG. Linux, as Windows, has its uses.

From a cost perspective, Linux really can't be beat. How can anyone expect me to shell out my hard-earned cash to update to the newest release of an OS? To pay for software development? To pay for customer support? Linux is developed mostly out of the love for the system. Most Linux programmers are Open-Source programmers, they don't get paid for their labors-of-love. Microsoft developers expect to get paid, and sometimes unfairly so. I can understand time=money... But how do the two equate when the products all "feel" the same? I may not have a 24HR customer support line I can call when my OS BSODs on me... But then, why should I need to call a 24HR line that connects me to an operator who has been out-sourced to cut costs? The operators there have always seemed, again opinion, like robots. They follow a script without deviation... Where's the personal touch I remember? I can not in good conscience continue pouring money in a hole so that someone else's pockets can become engorged. My Debian Distro did not cost me more than the price of a few DVD+/-RWs and some bandwidth from my ISP. Comparatively, Microsoft expects me to pay a couple hundred dollars in order to use their newest, and not completely stable, version of their OS. I have seen the OS in use... It's pretty.

I will continue using the XP Professional copy I acquired through my school until it is no longer supported by the hardware available or MS labels the OS "dead" [see, it is dying] and am forced to purchase the upgraded OS. Just as I will continue using my Debian Distro until it loses similar support and I need to get the newest Distro. The difference here is, I will not NEED to pay for a new version of Linux.

I use Windows when I need to, I use Linux because I prefer to. Anything that can let these two OSs happily coexist in a Win32 or AMD64 environment will persuade me to purchase the newer OS sooner. Thankfully, KDE4 is attempting to find that happy medium where I can use both Linux KDE programs in a Win32 environment, almost natively. When it [KDE4] is released in a stable [non-beta] version, I'll grab it for Windows, I'll test drive it, and if I am happy with it... I'll be at Fry's sooner to get my hands on Vista Pro.

Until then...

Dual-booting is my happy medium.

Peace be with you.

[As an aside, when people begin using expletives to attempt to validate a point, they are usually assuming that they are on the losing side of the coin. The same can be said of making reference to a person's level of income. These are low-blows that really are not necessary... If you feel you are losing the fight, be smart, don't resort to hitting below the belt.]

Michael Hurley said...

"Try Vista, it is honestly the most stable release yet. If you disagree, you have no used it."

Had to respond to this...

I currently am using vista...
I am dying to switch to ubuntu and have tried to do so but my preference of graphical applications are not yet supported by linux or wine.

My problem with this post is this:
My config:
Vista Ultimate x86
gateway gt5260
4gb of ram
nvidia 9600gt
intel core 2 duo
and 2tb of storage
250 gb of which is separately partitioned and dedicated to virtual memory.

I have visual effects set to adjust for best performance.

ie7 crashes constantly
windows explorer (the basis of the gui and most native app) has to restart approximately 4 times a day.

I don't use any hacked 3rd party apps, or any that manipulate windows system files, in fact the only apps I have installed are Office '07(mistake), firefox, adobe cs3 web premium, and adobe after affects.

If my Windows Experience Index is 5.6

Why is it than that my younger brother mark can start his machine at the same time as i start mine and when i'm just seeing the login screen he's already checked his email, myspace, and is halfway done watching some crazy prank on you tube.

I would switch to apple if I hadn't already spent close to $6k on hardware and software assuming windows was going to be stable this time, I guess it's my fault really I should have listened to that smart ass who once said, "(ass)-(you)-(me)-(ng) Makes an ass out of you and me"

Thank you
-Michael Hurley
-Web Developer
~Studio12Designs

Tim said...

Umm... I hope "250 gb of which is separately partitioned and dedicated to virtual memory." is a mistake. Having too little or too much virtual memory/swap space is a very bad thing. While the original rules (1.5 or 2 times your RAM) were made a pretty long time ago, I think that'd help boost performance on your system.

Anonymous said...

Haha holy fuck. Do you guys ever leave the house?

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